But this last week we ran into this verse:
James 4:5 "Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, 'He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us?'(ESV)"
Now, I'm not going to get into the content of what that quote says (although it is a fascinating quote) but what I'm interested in is the phrase "the Scripture says"... because the fact is that the scriptures we have in our Bible don't contain a quote like that.
I'm not really concerned about the content of the quote because there are other verses that are in our Bible that line up with what the quote is saying, but what do we do with Scripture quoting "scripture" that we don't have as scripture?
James does this once but Paul does it frequently:
Paul quotes early church leader, Clement when he says (quoting Jesus) in Acts 20:35 "It is more blessed to give than to receive ."
We have no records of Jesus saying that in our canonical gospels. But Clement says that Jesus said it (1 Clement 46:7). None of Clement's writings were considered authoritative enough to make it into the Biblical cannon but Paul quotes him!?!
And then there's Paul quoting completely non-Christian sources...
I guess Paul liked reading Greek poetry, because he quotes Aratus' poem "Phainomena" (Acts 17:38), Menander's poem "Thais" (1 Cor. 15:33) and twice quotes Cretan poet, Epiminides (Titus 1:12 and Acts 17:28).
It is clear from the way that the Apostle Paul uses these quotations that, like we use them today, the quotes are used to reinforce the point Paul is making... in other words, they are used to reinforce what we now have as Scripture.
So all of this begs a few questions:
- does scripture need reinforcing?
- do these secular quotations become authoritative because they are included in Scripture?
- do the Christian (but extra-Biblical) quotations (the Clement quote and the one from James) indicate that there are authoritative Scriptures outside of the Bible?
10 comments:
I've heard people use Matthew 5:18 "Truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." as a defense that the scriptures as they are are perfect. But it doesn't really say the whole of scripture here, just the law. So is just the law scripture and everything else is just wise teaching? Or can we call the New Testament Scripture? I have often wondered about the Bible and who got to pick what went in and what didn't. But then I think, if the Holy Spirit can direct the authors to write what God wanted to say, can the Holy Spirit not also direct what gets put in as "scripture" and what doesn't?
Yeah, Lisa. I've wondered a lot about all that too. I think it makes the most sense to think that Jesus was refering to "the Law" in the Jewish sense, thus refering to the Pentateuch (Gen. - Deut.).
People also often point to 2 Peter 3:16 (which hints that Paul's letters may have already been considered to be "scriptures") to say that during the life of the New Testament writers the New Testament Cannon was already being developed.
But the fact is that it wasn't until the late 300s AD when there were a series of councils (ie Hippo and Carthage) that our current Bible was settled on.
We have to have a lot of faith that the Holy Spirit was speaking to those Christians as they cast their votes!!!
This is where our theology of "binding" and "loosing" (Mt. 16:19) really needs to come into play.
It seems that a needed question would be 'What do we mean by the word 'authoritative'?'
Sometimes it seems that when you really get down to the nuts and bolts of it, many people have very different views of what something being 'authoritative' means.
'The Last Word' by NT Wright is very helpful for this topic, it certainly helped to shape my views regarding the idea of 'authority'. He says some interesting things about canonization too. I get hesitant when people view the canonized (protestant)Bible as the dropped-from-the-sky, written-by-the-finger-of-God book, as though we can't learn a thing from the Apocrypha or Dead Sea Scrolls, etcetera because they aren't 'inspired'...baaallloney. In no way was that what the early councils were trying to advocate.
...and Tim, I know you read Wright's article on how the Bible can be authoritative...so I know you have answers to your own questions...
Hey Tim, have you tried looking in the King James version? Those quotes might be in there. Also I find 3 Timothy very handy in cases such as this.
It is interesting that we think of Scripture as authoritative, meaning the writings that we have now. However, were not all the words that Jesus spoke authoritative? Even if they didn't get written? Are not the words of other men and women who are filled with the Holy Spirit Authoritative? Scripture is used as our measuring stick but it is not all the words of God. So if Scripture quotes someone else then we are assured that the idea they are quoting is from God. Even if the entirety of that authors quotes are not regarded as Scripture. Even non-Christians can speak truth that lines up with God's truth. I think that words from God are always authoritative, but we need the Scriptures to make sure of God's character and the way He works so we can evaluate if these words are from God.
Tim S.
Great subject honourable Assistant Pastor. I believe the Acts 20 quote is an "agrapha", a saying of Jesus not recorded in the Gospels. It didn't originate with Clement, so from where did he get it?
Great questions honourable Assistant Pastor, now where are the answers?
I would fain refer unto thee Perry F Rockwood unto whom thou knowest the KJV descended from heaven yea, fell even unto his lap wherupon he declareth with authority, not like the scribes "ouch that hurt" And thereafter it was called in the Latin tongue textus receptus. However he hath gone unto his reward. But hark he is still on the radio so he like Abel though dead still speaketh.
Sorry it's too late to get the true scoop from Perry F. otherwise we would all know the answers.
May Rockwood and all of his "fundy" goodness rest in peace! Now let's have no more KJV nonsense:) ... it's just such a shockingly BAD translation:(
And, TimS, I'm pretty sure I don't have a "3rd Timothy" in my Bible... but assuming you're talking about 2Tim3:16 we still have to ask ourselves what "scriptures" Paul is referring to... also assuming that Paul wouldn't be talking about HIS OWN LETTERS as being authoritative scriptures. He MIGHT have been talking about Mt, Mk, and Lk which were already written, but I'm inclined to think he was talking about the OT.
And, Mike, of course I have some of my own answers... it's just no fun saying them all at once!
Um, I have a funny feeling that Tim S. may have been saying he IS 3 Timothy, Tim B. At least, it seems to be something my dear brother would hint at. After all, I know his word is authoritative...right after dad's that is.
That's ridiculous Lisa. I'm not 3 Timothy, how absurd. But I could send you some excerpts from it for a small fee. Just give me your topic and I'll make some up, er, look it up for you.
Sorry Tim B. I wasn't referring to 2 Tim 3:16, I'm not that smart. I'm sure Paul was referring tot he OT but at the time that he wrote 2 Tim don't you think there would have been some of the NT stuff that people were holding as Scripture. Sure not his own writings (although Paul does come across arrogant sometimes, probably no that arrogant). I hope you will share some of your own answers so we all know if you are seeing who will respond and then laugh at our ignorance.
Tim S.
How about passages such as 1 Cor.7:12, where Paul as much as says that what he is saying is NOT authoritative? OK, everybody, get out your pen-knife and start cutting! (just kidding). The possiblity is certainly there that the men who voted on the Canon might have made a mistake or two - I doubt that we could do any better today. But I think we need to have the faith that our Father had (and has) enough control to get that which HE deemed necessary into the Canon of Scripture
Oh, yeah! Thanks Brian. I had forgotten about that passage in 1Cor. It can certainly become a muddled issue, can't it?
What a great burden those men of faith had on their shoulders! I can't imagine having to make dicisions of that level. Wow.
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