I remember being a surprised in a Genesis/Exodus class I had at Bethany College when our prof challenged our ideas of the perfection of creation. I know that this initially sounds heretical; and I also know that our prof was mostly challenging us just to get us thinking critically.
But the fact is that the Bible doesn't claim the perfection of creation... at least in so many words.
The first time "perfect" is used in the Bible is in Leviticus 22:21 (NASB). I also know that a lot of the ideas of Pre-fall Eden are a reflection of the Post-apocalyptic "New Eden" in Revelation (ie. heaven). But the fact is that the word "perfect" is not used anywhere in the book of Revelation either.
Obviously this raises a lot of questions (primarily: is "Pastor" Tim being blasphemous?).
I hope not. It is certainly not my intent. I'm trying to be a good post-modern Christian: a full plate of good intentions with a side order of scepticism.
Think of it this way: Does a "perfect" world allow the option of sin?
Eden did.
Heaven will not.
What is our definition of "perfect"?
Is Heaven simply a return to what Eden was or is Heaven something even greater? IE. if Heaven is greater then it must be "better" or "more perfect" hence Eden was "less perfect"/ not actually "perfect".
OK. I'll stop now and let you all set me straight.
12 comments:
Not smart to call lightning down on yourself right before your baby is due.
Tim S.
I don't know how to get into the discussion of what is better or worse, 'heaven' or Eden--I don't know if I really want to.
But this did remind me of one of the questions that confused a whole bunch of us in a Bib Theo class I was in.
How could Adam and Eve, people who walked very closely with God, have possibly sinned?
A rhetorical question, I suppose.
But I just think of what we typically think of as 'closeness with God' and 'spiritual growth' and contrast it with hearing God walk around in the cool of the day and having clear conversations with him--you'd think these people were remarkably close to God. And then you think of the fact that, in spite of it all, they straight-up disobeyed.
It really makes you think of what 'intimacy' with God really means and how it affects us. Would anyone have sinned in the same situation...did it have to happen? Makes you think of sinful nature and God's intentions and 'the Word being with God in the beginning'...God's whole plan with Jesus and redemption and whatnot.
I don't know.
---Mikul
I guess my main point is that, since none of us has been to either Eden or Heaven, and since all Biblical writings about both places are rife with imagery and symbolism, most of what we think we "know" when it comes to these places is part of our 'Christian Conditioning' (in my opinion... and I don't mean it to sound as bad as it does).
But, Mike, I think you inadvertantly concur with what I've said. In Eden, intimacy with God included the possibility of destroying our relationship with God. In Heaven that intimacy will be infinite and indestructable.
Maybe the question of which is better, Eden or Heaven is related to the question, which is better, innocence (not knowing evil at all) or salvation (having known evil, rejected it, and been saved from it). Perhaps the answer to this question gives us the reason why God allowed Adam and Eve to have a choice???
Well first of all I think your adam and eve picture is kind of creepy - and eves hair always covered her parts! :)
Hmmmm is all I say to what you've brought up - food for thought I guess.... and I haven't commented for a while and so I thought I would!
Why does one have to be more perfect than the other? Do they even have to be compared? It's like two meals, one is lemon pepper chicken and the other is marinated steak. They both turn out perfect to what they are supposed to be but one is better than the other. Does that mean the other is less perfect? I just don't think that God can make imperfection, wouldn't that go against his nature? Couldn't Eden just be a reflection of the greatness of heaven?
Why can't "perfect" allow the option of sin? I could make the perfect steak and still not like it and give it to the dog. Most would consider that a "sin." People may have been created perfect but included in perfection is the ability to think and decide for yourself. God's making of us is perfect, but we don't always do perfect things. That's what I think.
And your Fimo dolls are really creepy.
I get the whole 'perfection includes freewill' thing. I'm totally on board with that. However I can't quite resolve disliking a "perfect" steak.
I'm still pondering this innocence/salvation thing. There are some very "Tolkienesque" themes emerging.
Agree with previous comment that the dolls are creepy - but nice touch.
I Like Eleanor's comment of the perfection of innocence or Salvation. Wow,What an insight! I like the way she thinks! I simpy observe that God liked what he made and said it was good. That's perfect enough for me. But did plants and animals also live forever or did they die of old age and decay? Did Adam and Eve slaughter the poor innocent plants and eat them in the Garden, i.e. the death of plants? Was there natural death of animals? If so was Eden perfect if there was death and decay? I perfection relating to obedience and relationship?
YO, Tim, talk to me.
I think it shows us that no matter how close we are to God, we can give in to the temptation of sin. It happens with regular people, it has happened with Pastors. Maybe God wants us to learn and grow from out choices, experiences, mistakes and sins.
Rick
OK, so I think the little clay Adam and Eve are creepy too. THey just made me laugh (especially because lots of the time we don't portray Adam and Eve as being Middle Eastern. White skin, blond hair? Not likely!)
There's no doubt about it, Rick. You've struck a major theme in scripture. Regardless of all these semantics it truly comes down to "how can I continue to grow closer to God in the midst of my own imperfection".
I guess with all of this other stuff I've just been wondering what "perfection" really is. What are our perceptions of perfection? Even before the fall man had to "rule" (1:26,28) and "subdue" (1:18). Work, responsibility, duty, etc... were all a part of pre-fall eden. Many people don't see this side of Eden. Personally I think that, before the fall, if Adam stubbed his toe it still would have hurt.
I think the talk of intimacy and innocense/salvation may be hitting closer to Eden's true perfection.
Do you think that this means there were human-stinging mosquitoes before the fall-- and will they be in heaven?
Let's cut to the important stuff, here...
Mikeinmexico
If there are mesquitos in heaven than you can count me out. That goes for spiders too.
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